Joe Koster - Sorfis Investments
Joe Koster - Sorfis Investments
When Joe was first reading Benjamin Franklin’s autobiography and learning about his Thirteen Virtues, he noticed that the first letters of virtues two through seven spelled SORFIS, which was both pronounceable and unique—and the origin of the name. And it should be noted that the six virtues that spell SORFIS are all great traits for someone running an investment firm.
“Saving is great but it's not just to earn financial independence when you're old. If you're saving well now and living below your means, that gives you career independence. It gives you life independence.”
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Stocks for Beginners
Joe Koster (5s):
In the last decade or so, it's been a lot of escalator-ing things upwards and there hasn't been a whole lot of downward volatility that lasts for too long through normal market cycles. We saw temporarily over a couple of months last year. Things can go down in a hurry and if you get emotionally worried and sell out or go into cash at those times, that can really, really hurt your long-term returns. But if you're ready to take advantage of it really helps your returns.
Phil Muscatello (30s):
Hi and welcome back to Stocks for Beginners, I'm Phil Muscatello, where we try to avoid trifling conversation. My guest today is a lover of a good quote, from which that previous sentence came from. Joe Koster, founder and portfolio manager at Sorfis Investments, Charlotte, North Carolina, and editor of the Value Investing World blog and newsletter. Hello Joe.
Joe Koster (51s):
Hi Phil, thanks for having me.
Phil Muscatello (52s):
Thanks for coming on. Before we look at the origin of the name Sorfis, from which that quote previously came from, tell us about the two strategies that Sorfis offers. I think they're worth discussing as a way for investing beginners to reflect on their own approach to markets.
Joe Koster (1m 8s):
All right, thanks. Our two strategies are really for two different types of investors. The first is a diversified strategy. This is for clients that have, you know, really all or a significant part of their investible assets with us. And they've spent years, decades, and lifetimes building up their nest eggs and trust us to diversify widely for them and we really add our value for those clients through service, financial tax planning, when appropriate, and managing the emotional ups and downs that often come with investing so that they don't have to. Our other strategy is aimed more for clients that want to use us as a small part of their overall portfolios. So they want their investment with us to be different from the other parts of their investment portfolio.
Joe Koster (1m 48s):
So this strategy is concentrated and it's kind of focused on 6 to 12 best ideas. You know, and invest in companies of all sizes, including microcap stocks. In my experience, great management teams find smart things to do with capital that it's hard to put to model in when you go in. Or some investments, some more capital cycle type investments. So these would kind of be, kind of the two big books on the subject would be "Capital Account", "Capital Returns", which's a great overview of this type of investing. But it's more, you got the headwinds of a certain industry tailwinds behind you where you might have a lot of players in an industry do well, just because an industry is you know, the supply demand dynamics are off. And so everybody kind of does well.
Joe Koster (2m 29s):
And so you get sort of your return from that kind of tailwind but...
Phil Muscatello (2m 32s):
Could you just explain that a little bit more about that investing approach and what what's the main thrust of that book that you were mentioning?
Joe Koster (2m 39s):
Yeah, so "Capital Returns" and "Capital Account", I think they were based on off the letters of Marathon Asset Management. So it's really, you have an industry set up where it's more focused on supply than demand.
Phil Muscatello (2m 51s):
Have you got an example, like a solid example of a company that you've invested in using this approach and the story behind that capital change.
Joe Koster (2m 59s):
Well, probably the best examples are the ones that they talk about. So in the internet bubble, you had all this fibre that was laid. So all of this capital was coming in. Everybody was laying fibre. You know this, all the telecoms were just spending money, being able to raise money, to lay more and more fibre down. And then when the bust happened, all right, you have all these fibres in the ground. Basically, this whole infrastructure was built for internet businesses, but every, all the internet business, all the technology stocks had all gotten killed so... I mean Marathon's case, they had talked in the book about Amazon pretty early, it just being one of the leaders in the space. That's going to take advantage of all this infrastructure that's already been built. Amazon didn't have to build all that infrastructure. In that case, you even had all the whole credit card infrastructure, everything that was already in place well before that as well.
Joe Koster (3m 43s):
So they could build their whole business on top of this whole infrastructure that they didn't have to spend the money on. So that's one example. Obviously you want to get the upset as well, but it helps you avoid the so-called value traps in the world too. So when you're seeing home builders in the US well, probably around the world, but especially in the US is what I'm familiar with, leading up to '05 '06, a lot of these housing related stocks just looked, all right, you're trading at 7, 8, 10, 12 times earnings. They kind of looked very inexpensive. If you understood the capital cycle approach, you could kind of sidestep that bubble and avoid it. I think that was the book "Capital Returns" that talked a little bit about that one. Whereas if you were just focused on PE or something like that, you might've kind of missed something thinking you were buying a cheap stock when in reality you were way overpaying for a normal level of profits.
Phil Muscatello (4m 31s):
You were talking previously about that multiple, that it was about 7 or 8 PE. Can you explain to a beginner what that actually means?
Joe Koster (4m 40s):
Yeah. So I think for beginners, one of the most important aspects of investing and what I like to tell when I talk to college students and things is stocks are ownerships businesses. So, you know, I just like to use a simple example. If you're going to start a car wash with your buddy and the two of you go in 50:50 partners, you each own 50%. Whereas if you own a stock, you know, maybe it's a million shares, a billion shares, whatever outstanding, but you're still an owner of that business just as you were in a 50:50 joint venture in a carwash. And so you really want to view your ownership as a small stake of that whole company. So a PE ratio is just say, if I own my carwash and it makes $1 a share and I own half I'm making 50 cents a share.
Joe Koster (5m 23s):
So what's that 50 cents worth? What would you sell it to me for? So if somebody came and offered me, say $5 per share for that business, well it's making 50 cents a year. So he's offering me $5 for my share. You know, that's a 10% yield. Well is a 10% return good? Can I do something else better with that money? So in that case, the PE would be 10. So the price he's offering me is $5, my earnings are 50 cents, he's offering me 10 times that number. So it's a way to put a value, but more importantly, it helps you determine what's a fair price for your business. And evaluation's a hard topic. And, you know, the range of values can be very, very wide. But you know how I like to view it is, when I'm investing in a stock is, all right the company is making 10 million a year.
Joe Koster (6m 8s):
If it's trading at a 10 PE, that's a So, hundred-million-dollar valuation, but that's a 10% yield for me. So if I own this business and I'm right that this is going to make $10 million. That basically means I'm earning 10% our money. So if I put it in the bank, I right now, or nothing, or half a percent. Whereas if I own this business, I'm making 10% of my money. Now, the question is how sure am I in that I'm right about that earning power? And is it likely to grow or shrink? If it's likely to grow my 10% yield is just going to get better and better and better. Whereas if I'm wrong or it's a shrinking business, then, I mean, that's not the best place for my money. So that's probably a long-winded way to say the most important topic I think when new investors looking at businesses view it as an entire business that you're buying a share of.
Joe Koster (6m 49s):
And then, all right, what am I paying for that business? And PE ratio is just a way of expressing that.
Phil Muscatello (6m 54s):
Do you speak with college students a lot?
Joe Koster (6m 57s):
A few times a year. So I went to Coastal Carolina University in South Carolina and I'm on the Finance Advisory Board there. As well as the Board of the Wall Fellows Program, which is a business program at the school. I'm always happy to call and talk to students and speak with them when they call and usually go there at least once a year.
Phil Muscatello (7m 13s):
What are some of the questions that they ask you?
Joe Koster (7m 15s):
Similar to how we were just talking. You know, they just kind of want a general understanding. I think college textbooks, especially, and I was very lucky when I was there to have a professor who sort of taught to value investing and, we had Hagstrom's book on Buffett. "The Essential Buffett" was one of our class reading materials. So that was my initial exposure and I appreciated that a lot. But I think a lot of what you read in the textbook isn't necessarily how things work in the real world. You know, it's not doing formulas to figure out what returns are going to be.
Phil Muscatello (7m 42s):
What it gets onto a too abstract intellectual, theoretical level does it at university rather than the practicalities?
Joe Koster (7m 48s):
Yeah and I think you don't realize there's businesses behind those stocks, right? You think it's much more mathematical than sort of that real world. There's people on the ground trying to make money and grow a business and there's competitors coming in trying to take that business away. And so I sort of encourage people, especially students, you know, pick one small business that's easy to understand and maybe you like. And, you know, read the financial statements. If you're inclined, go try to talk to management and really get to understand the business so that you can see, you know, investing is really about investing in these people and these employees and these management teams.
Phil Muscatello (8m 21s):
Yeah I've had in another interview where someone said, it's like having all of these people working on your behalf when you own stock in the company.
Joe Koster (8m 29s):
Yeah that's true. As Charlie Munger likes to say, "It's not supposed to be easy". It's a hard business to find great companies early at the right price. But if you do, you can just sort of sit back and wait and all these people work for you and you can just hold your shares, not pay taxes until you have to sell. And that's a good situation to be in if you can find the right businesses that's for sure.
Phil Muscatello (8m 49s):
And with one of your portfolios being quite concentrated, there's not many stocks and companies in that portfolio, there's going to be more volatility. Can you just give us a little bit of an explanation of what volatility is and how one should approach it?
Joe Koster (9m 4s):
Yeah so volatility, of course, a lot of people think volatility is risk, but you know, volatility is really only risk if it can take you out of the game. So usually that only happens if you're using leverage. And so you get a margin call or something, or if you're not emotionally ready for that volatility. But you know, if you don't use leverage, you can emotionally handle the up and downs, then, you know, volatility is really opportunity. You know, in our concentrated strategy, we're willing to carry a lot of cash. We don't have enough good ideas. So that volatility, we always have a list of companies we're following and love to buy them at the right price. And if that volatility gives us that right price, great. But even in our strategies we're very, very diversified for people. You know, that volatility can make a huge difference in how we can add value.
Joe Koster (9m 46s):
Because again, we have to make sure going in that everyone's positioned the right way and they're not taking more risks than they like. But you know, that volatility means we can potentially create some tax losses that can offset their income. And we can potentially rebalance some things, especially if they have cash coming in regularly, if they're still contributing their accounts, that volatility basically increases our future internal rate of return by being able to put money to work during those volatile times at higher prices. So the key is having yourself set up structurally either emotionally or, you know, the way you're managing money to be able to take advantage of that volatility and not let it take you out of the game.
Phil Muscatello (10m 22s):
So volatility is that just simply the process of the stock going up and down on a daily basis or weekly basis?
Joe Koster (10m 28s):
Yep, just general ups and downs. And you know, as the saying goes, you know, a lot of times the market likes to take the escalator up and the elevator down and that's often how it works. We saw some volatility obviously in March of last year. But you know, for the last decade or so, it's been a lot of escalator-ing things upwards and there hasn't been a whole lot of downward volatility that lasts for too long through normal market cycles. You know, as we saw temporarily over a couple of months last year, things can go down in a hurry and if you get emotionally worried and sell out or go into cash at those times that can really, really hurt your long-term returns. But if you're ready to take advantage of it, you know, it can really help your returns.
Phil Muscatello (11m 10s):
How important is portfolio weighting? And what is portfolio weighting first, I mean, let's just discuss that just briefly. But I guess it's like the number of different stocks and how you arrange them in a portfolio. Is that the case?
Joe Koster (11m 23s):
Yep. So yeah, portfolio weighting will be kind of like the percent of a certain holding in your portfolio. So for example, if you had 10 stocks in your portfolio and they were all equally weighted, each one would be a 10% portfolio weighting. Most mutual funds or ETFs or things like that will have, you know, over a hundred stocks. They'll rarely have a stock that'll be more than 1 or 2%. Whereas if you're a concentrated manager, you might have certain stocks that are 5, 10, 15, maybe even 20% of your portfolio for your best, biggest position sizes. So it certainly has a major influence on your overall outcomes, both good and bad, you know, the good decisions get amplified as do the bad. So if your goal is to earn the highest returns over time, you know, then you probably want to run a concentrated portfolio.
Joe Koster (12m 8s):
But that can also lead to punishing losses if you wrong. So if your goal is to just earn decent returns and or average returns and avoid the worst outcomes, you know, then you'd want smaller position sizes. So smaller portfolio weightings per position and more diversification. So it really depends on the person and the situation. Whether or not you want your portfolio weightings to be big for each position, or if you want to have smaller portfolio weightings and thus more diversification.
Phil Muscatello (12m 35s):
Let's get onto the name Sorfis and where the name for Sorfis Investments came from.
Joe Koster (12m 40s):
Right. So I took the name from Benjamin Franklin, I'm a big fan of. Way back when I was trying to memorize his 13 virtues, I noticed that, you know, the first letter of virtues 2 through 7, spelled the word Sorfis, which was both unique and also had the benefit that the domain name was available. So I saved the domain name and figured that if I ever decided to launch my own firm, that would be the name I use. So when I launched the investment advisory business in 2019 that's what I went with.
Phil Muscatello (13m 7s):
A lot of people talk about Charlie Munger or Warren Buffett, or Peter Lynch as being the, you know, the gurus of investing, but not many people would look at Benjamin Franklin as being one of the gurus of investing. So you think there's lessons to be learned from his virtues?
Joe Koster (13m 21s):
No, I think so in the virtues. You know, it's amazing what he wrote and said one, how ahead of his time, he was not just on business and investing type things, but also, you know, in general, the inventions he made and everything else, but his understanding of psychology, but also yes, his thrift and its simple things it takes to be successful in a way of communicating them So, well. Yeah, I think certainly he's somebody to model you yourself after. And he's got a little book called "The Way to Wealth", which you can Google and find free online or, or buy a short version of Amazon or something, which is great. And certainly "Poor Richard's Almanac" is full of aphorisms that are still plenty, plenty relevant today.
Phil Muscatello (13m 59s):
So tell us about one or two that maybe really means something to you.
Joe Koster (14m 3s):
Yeah, so, you know, all of them are great and the ones I named my firm after, you know, certainly the introvert in me loves the silence virtue. But you know, joking aside, there are so many great conversations to have in this world that, you know, it's important to really not get lost, talking about things that you really don't want to talk about or aren't interested in.
Phil Muscatello (14m 22s):
Like we were saying about the trifling conversation to avoid small talk, I guess, is it's important to talk about things of importance. Is that the case?
Joe Koster (14m 30s):
Yeah, I think so. And you know, it's not that you can't have fun conversations those are fine too. Especially if they're with people you care about and you want to communicate and keep a relationship with. But completely randomly a lot of, you know, the major directions in my life have been made by talking to people who were so interesting to talk to that I learned something I didn't know. Which led me down another rabbit hole and I got to learn something else which led me somewhere else. And so, you know, I think a lot of people go through life just trying to talk and trying to, whether it's sell themselves or sell something else. Whereas the best conversations are often, you know, just trying to be around people, you don't know where they're going to go, but there are people who you share an interest or they have an experience that they're willing to talk about because they want to share it as well.
Joe Koster (15m 14s):
So yeah. So spending time avoiding the trifling conversations and trying to have meaningful ones. I think you just never know when one of those conversations will lead
Phil Muscatello (15m 23s):
And frugality, the 'F' in Sorfis is frugality. I think a lot of people these days don't really understand or want to be involved with being frugal.
Joe Koster (15m 31s):
Yeah, I think so. And you know, getting back to talking to students, you know, a lot of what I like to tell them is, so again saving is great but it's not just, you know, to earn financial independence when you're old. If you're saving well now, you're living below your means that also gives you career independence. It gives you life independence. You know, not everybody can find the perfect job coming out of college. But if you're living well below your means and the right job comes up, but hey, maybe you gotta travel to the other side of the country, or maybe you got to take a pay cut or something like that, but it's the perfect job or somewhere you can actually have a mentor who can bring you along. Well, you know, if you have higher expenses and you're relying on your salary or you can't afford to just pack up and move in a weekend, then you don't have that flexibility.
Joe Koster (16m 14s):
So frugality is good for the obvious things of the rainy-day fund. The especially starting early, if you can start investing early, that makes a big difference. As Einstein said, "Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world". If you start early, investing early, that has a huge, huge difference on when you get older and into retirement age. But it also gonna have a big difference on your career path, just because you have that independence.
Phil Muscatello (16m 38s):
Yeah. It's interesting that you say that because when you're young, having the flexibility is really important because that's when the changes in your life that occur can have such an influence. And if you're tied to some kind of debt or credit card, it's going to be very difficult for you to take up those opportunities as you say.
Joe Koster (16m 57s):
I think so. And there's a difference between frugality and cheapness. So frugality is trying to not waste money, but cheap might not be spending money in anything. You know, some of my best friends have been, you know, just going to say the Berkshire Hathaway Annual Meeting or a very close friend and mentor in my life came from just randomly sitting next to the right person at a Wesco Annual Meeting back in 2006, you know, so going to those things cost money. You know, if you, somebody was cheap, maybe they would say, I'm not spending money on anything. Whereas if you're frugal, you're not wasting it, but you're spending it going to the right areas to try to expose yourself to the right people. As Nassim Taleb likes to call those positive black swans.
Joe Koster (17m 37s):
So spending money to get yourself in those kinds of situations where you may not know what's going to happen but one, if nothing else, you're going to learn something and two, you could potentially meet people that, you know, be friends with for life. Those I think are good expenses and not at odds with a frugal life.
Phil Muscatello (17m 53s):
I like the 'I' in a Sorfis: industry. Lose no time, be always employed in something useful, cut off all unnecessary actions. That's another one that's difficult to do in this day and age of distractions and constant distraction.
Joe Koster (18m 7s):
Well, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So industry is really about working hard and you know, whether it takes 10,000 hours or a little more, little less, whatever the number is to get good at something, it takes a while. And if you're getting good at something, you can add value to people. And especially in the investing business, we all want to be, you know, Warren Buffet overnight and or whoever pick your favorite investor. But it takes time, it takes experience. And so you just gotta put in the time, you've gotta put in the effort and, you know, I think it was, I think it was Charlie Munger's 2007 commencement speech at USC I believe, he stressed the importance of hard work, reliability and, you know, that was really getting at Ben Franklin, industry in this case. One of Franklin's other virtues is, you know, resolution which is really about being reliable and I've certainly, both through my own experience as well as not wanting to argue with Franklin and Munger, certainly putting in the time and effort to get good at something and develop some expertise is it just takes time, it takes work.
Phil Muscatello (19m 4s):
And these are often seen as old fashioned. It is these days, but they kind of universal and timeless, aren't they?
Joe Koster (19m 10s):
Yeah, I think so. And I think today especially with just the access to information and the stories you hear about the survivorship bias. Basically you hear the stories of people who got here so fast or the lucky stories all rise to the top of the news articles. But you know, these old-fashioned ideas about hard work being reliable, you know, doing things, sort of that long-term mindset, I think that's really what's sustainable. And, you know, if almost anybody can do these things and be successful, again, different levels of success, but if you're doing the right things over a long period of time, it's, you know, it's kind of hard not to be successful if you do it for long enough. But those certainly aren't the stories you, you see that get the headlines.
Phil Muscatello (19m 49s):
That's interesting because people often talk about Benjamin as a symbol for money, power and greed but he sure doesn't sound like that.
Joe Koster (19m 55s):
No, I don't think so. Obviously I'm biased since I like him as much as I do. But I learned something new almost every time I read whether it's his autobiography or Walter Isaacson's biography, or if you really want the details there's one from Carl Van Doren that came out quite a long time ago but it was very, very detailed. But yeah, I think it's all very relevant to today. And you know, a lot of his life and his writings, especially his autobiography was to leave a good record and good instruction for future generations. So his face on the hundred-dollar bill maybe gives him that symbol for money and greed, but he probably would be just as happy to be on the penny than the hundred-dollar bill.
Phil Muscatello (20m 32s):
So what's the role of skepticism in investing?
Joe Koster (20m 36s):
Yeah I mean, I think skepticism is important because, you know, it's easy to be sold by someone with the best of interest. Somebody is always trying to sell you something. But you don't want to just be skeptical for the sake of being skeptical and you don't want to just be skeptical of everything new. Almost all skepticism has some element of truth on the other side. You know, I mean some of the truly all-time great investments had really smart, you know, really well-known skeptics at the time. People like Paul Krugman, for example, you know, very well-known economists the guy who should understand economics very well and does I'm sure, but he pretty much said the internet was going to be a fleeting, passing fad.
Joe Koster (21m 17s):
So, you know, if you would've just listened to him in the late nineties or maybe mid-nineties, whenever he had talked about the internet being a passing fad, you know, you would have missed one of the all-time great understandings of how the world was going to change over the next 20 to 25 years. Whether it's Amazon or Apple had major skeptics at the time, you know, even when they were at their lows. You know, apple had a very popular professor who came out and said, you know, when they were launching the iPod and things were growing, you know, "This business is dead, this is going nowhere, Jobs has failed". And yet Apple's been, you know, the all-time great investment since that time back in '03 '04 '05, whenever it was, to today.
Joe Koster (21m 57s):
And so my advice is it's good to be skeptical in some extent. Because people are going to try to sell you things, they have an interest in selling you things that interest in promoting things, which you can always see and, you know, sell side analysts, buy versus sell recommendations. But you have to be willing to think for yourself. So sometimes it takes years to learn something. If there's something you think could be important, even if there's skeptics, you know, just say, I'm not going to have an opinion but I'm going to learn about it. Learn both sides and form your own opinion and you can decide for yourself once you take the time to understand it well.
Phil Muscatello (22m 32s):
Sorry this is a question off the record here. But do you have a solid example of a company that you've been skeptical about but it's worked out?
Joe Koster (22m 42s):
Yep. Well back to Amazon, to use one example, where I think I had a couple of great letters and presentations from people who had laid out sort of the case from Amazon. You know, the positive network dynamics, you know, that positive flywheel of how things are going to work. And I'd seen the writings back in '08, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, but I always wanted a better price. So I was skeptical that it was going to play out as well and as quickly. Even though every year, the numbers were sort of justifying how it was going to work. And certainly you had models like Costco that Amazon was sort of built off of.
Joe Koster (23m 23s):
You know, this whole scale economic shared model where as they get bigger, they share the pricing they get from suppliers. They share that with customers which means customers buy more. So I think the model was there. I think I was just skeptical that it was worth paying it at the time, what seemed like a higher price, because I had to assume what margins would be down the road. But yet that certainly proved to be a mistake as that flywheel was not only very real but would end up accelerating once AWS and everything else was put on top of it.
Phil Muscatello (23m 55s):
You mentioned network effects when you were talking then. I always like to talk about some particular piece of jargon and have it explained for beginners as well, because this is something I've been hearing a lot about lately, as you want, you want to be investing in business that has a network effect. Can you just quickly explain what that is please?
Joe Koster (24m 13s):
Yes. So network effect is probably one of the more powerful things to try to understand. So, you know, the example people like to use is a telephone. When the telephone was invented if there's only one telephone in the world, it's not very valuable because you have nobody to call. So suddenly if there's two people with the telephone, well now your telephone has value because you can call one person. You know, as a hundred people get a telephone, well now it's that much more valuable. Anytime somebody increases, in this case gets a telephone, the whole network becomes kind of exponentially more valuable because it's not just that you can now call 99 people instead of one. It's that all those other people can now also call each other. So the network just keeps getting more and more valuable for each individual that enters the network.
Joe Koster (24m 56s):
And so that works with businesses too where, you know, as Amazon to use them again as an example, as they were building out this network, so people were buying on Amazon, it was powerful. But then as more and more people started buying on Amazon, well then more and more people selling stuff wanted to sell on Amazon. Which then meant there were more things to buy. So if more people came on and then just sort of builds and builds and builds. So it's just where if that loop gets going, where as more people come on it gets more valuable to other people, then growth can really accelerate. And you know, it's kind of hard to predict, it doesn't always show up in the numbers. So in the investing business, you know, you really gotta understand what's going on underneath that network is happening.
Phil Muscatello (25m 38s):
And it also prevents competitors coming in as well. The other example I've heard in network effects companies are Visa and MasterCard, for example.
Joe Koster (25m 45s):
Yeah, you're exactly right. Yeah. It's very hard to displace when you have that kind of competitive advantage. When a network gets going, at some point it sort of grows and it sells. So you don't have to spend money on marketing all this. It just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Whereas if somebody else wants to go and create a new network, so we can use the Amazon as the example, if you wanted to try to compete with Amazon, you have to create something better for people to buy on Amazon. Which means the things they want to find not only have to be better selection but have to be a better price. So it's very, very hard to displace a company with more network effect is in place. Very hard to build, but if you get one, especially if you can identify it fairly early so you get it in a reasonable price, buy and holding through as it develops and gets stronger is a very, very successful way to compound your capital at higher rate return.
Phil Muscatello (26m 34s):
Joe, tell us about Sorfis and where we can get in contact with you and, and your blog as well on substack I believe.
Joe Koster (26m 40s):
Yep. So the blog, which has turned into the substack newsletter's Value Investing World. So it's valueinvestingworld.substack.com. My website is sorfis.com, S O R F I S. And yeah, my email address is on the website. Yeah, people want to reach out and feel free to send me an email or reach out on Twitter. My Twitter handle's @jtkoster so you can find me pretty easily.
Phil Muscatello (27m 2s):
Joe Koster, thank you very much for joining me today.
Joe Koster (27m 4s):
Thanks for having me Phil
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