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I recently had the pleasure of sitting down with Oliver Mander, the Chief Executive Officer of the New Zealand Shareholders Association (NZSA). As someone who’s passionate about investing and governance, Oliver offered a fascinating deep dive into the world of investing in New Zealand, a market that’s small but mighty.
We kicked things off by discussing the NZSA’s role in New Zealand’s financial ecosystem. Oliver explained how the NZSA monitors all 125 companies listed on the New Zealand Stock Exchange (NZX), fostering strong relationships with company boards and CEOs. Unlike the Australian Shareholders Association (ASA), the NZSA operates with a centralized approach, reflecting the smaller scale of the NZX. Their “constructive activism” focuses on improving corporate governance, guided by a set of policy principles that ensure companies are held accountable while understanding their unique contexts.
The NZX itself is a compact market, with a total market capitalization that ranges from giants like Fisher & Paykel Healthcare, valued at around NZ$20-22 billion, to smaller firms in the NZ50 index with market caps as low as NZ$250 million. Many NZX-listed companies also dual-list on the Australian Stock Exchange (ASX) to broaden their investor base. This dual-listing trend highlights New Zealand’s outward-looking approach, a necessity for a country that’s a small part of the global economy.
I was curious about whether New Zealand investors exhibit the same home-country bias we often see in Australia. Oliver confirmed that while some Kiwis prefer local investments, many diversify internationally due to the limited size of the NZX. Exchange-traded funds (ETFs) like those offered by Smart, owned by the NZX, provide an accessible way to invest locally while spreading risk. Interestingly, New Zealand lacks the heavy presence of global ETF providers like Vanguard or VanEck, with local players like Fisher Funds Management filling the gap.
We explored the sectors represented on the NZX, and Oliver highlighted tech, healthcare, power generation, and property as key areas. Unlike Australia, mining and banking stocks are less prominent. New Zealand’s tech scene, particularly in Wellington, is thriving, with companies like Xero (now ASX-listed) and unlisted startups like Hnry making waves. Agriculture, a cornerstone of New Zealand’s economy, is underrepresented on the NZX due to the prevalence of cooperative models like Fonterra, though companies like A2 Milk and PGG Wrightson offer exposure to this sector.
Oliver also shared his personal investing journey, which began at age 14 when he bought his first shares—though he humorously admitted the brokerage fees exceeded the share value! His approach today is disciplined and strategic, blending active and passive investments with a focus on long-term growth. He uses spreadsheets (a self-confessed “spreadsheet tragic”) to track portfolio performance, assess risk, and optimize allocations based on economic and geopolitical themes. For instance, he’s recently shifted capital toward European markets, particularly Germany, due to favourable conditions compared to the US.
When it comes to being wrong, Oliver stressed the importance of recognizing mistakes early, whether through dollar-cost averaging to mitigate losses or cutting investments that no longer align with his thesis. His mantra? Don’t follow the herd and always test your assumptions.
Beyond his role at NZSA, Oliver serves on the Scout Youth Foundation Investment Committee, managing an endowment fund to support disadvantaged families and scouting projects. His passion for governance and investor advocacy shines through in his work, driven by a belief that New Zealand’s high-quality regulatory regime fosters confidence in its markets.
www.nzshareholders.co.nz and hit the “Join Us” button.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Phil: Oliver Mander is the Chief Executive Officer of the New Zealand Shareholders Association, n a position he's held since October 2020. He previously worked for 19 years at BP Group, as well as Chorus, Z Energy and Wellington Water. And we met at the annual conference at the ASA this year in Sydney. How was that and what were your main takeaways?
Oliver Mander: Oh, uh, look, I really enjoyed that conference. That's something that I try to go to every couple of years or so. And we do have a really good working relationship with the Australian Shareholders Association. They take a lot from us and obviously, which we would like to take more from them and the skills and capabilities that they have. So. Yeah, and look, watch this space. There's, um, some things that we will do jointly as an Australasian set of organization very soon. So we're really looking forward to deepening that relationship further.
Phil: Do you do any company monitoring like the ASA does?
Oliver Mander: We do. We do it slightly differently to the asa, but we've got full coverage of the New Zealand Stock Exchange. So we cover, uh, the 125 companies that are on the exchange. It's a much smaller, smaller exchange than the asx, of course, but we do that in quite an engaging way. So we have what we would term a relatively strong relationship with every board, every chair, every CEO, uh, of those companies to have a more centralized process than the asa. And that simply reflects the scale of our operation. But, yeah, look, we have a set of policy principles. We assess against those principles. We have conversation with the companies with that because it really is about ensuring that we understand their context as well and that leads us to a form of constructive activism that is really quite unique in New Zealand and we're able to put out improvements and work with companies to actually improve their governance long term as well.
Phil: So you've said the number of companies which is 125, what's the kind of market capitalization and the size and the shape and what sort of companies are listed on the nzx?
Oliver Mander: There are some very significant organationss there. So the largest listed company uh, as a New Zealand company in New Zealand is Fisher and Bael Healthcare. Now that of course is listed on the ASX as well. It's a real feature of our market that many companies do jual list on the ASX because really that's somemount broadening their investor base as well and ensuring they can attract a diversity of investors both institutional and retail. So yes, Fisher and Pyel is our largest listed company. That's market capitalization of between 20 and 22 billion New Zealand dollars it's about uh, 20 odd billion Australian. The NZ50 drops down to about I think that the bottom components thenz50 is about 250 million as a market cap so really quite a lot smaller than what you're seeing in Australia. The NZ20 if you're investing in that index it's around half a billion dollars, maybe a bit more.
Phil: Do you find um, New Zealand investors have a bias towards their own market like Australians do here? I mean you know these days we can invest anywhere in the world but do locals invest locally as well there in Kiwi land O look they do.
Oliver Mander: And it's actually a problem for any market in the world there is this thing called home country bias and individual investors, they can be subjected to that wherever in the world that you are. But I think what is really we most New Zealanders would invest outside of New Zealand as a matter of course simply because that's just recognizising that we're a tiny, tiny part of the global economy and actually we want to make sure most investors want to make sure that they diversify their investments in a way that makes sense for them. So yep, there's 125 OD listed companies there's a range of ETFs on our market as well. There's probably another 50 or 60 of those uh, and that gives people an easy way to invest locally but still diversify their investments. But some will choose to invest directly in companies in the US or the UK or Australia and that prevalence is probably slightly higher than what it might be compared to a larger market like Australia simply because uh, most New Zealanders would recognise that we're a very small part of the world economy.
Phil: So uh, ETF providers there are they like the big ones they've got set up local offices like Vanguard and VANC and Global X and all those. Is that the case?
Oliver Mander: But they haven't actually no. So
00:05:00
Oliver Mander: EF provider is actually the largest ETF provider is called Smart and that's actually owned by the NZX itself. So they're operating as a passive fund Manderger at that point as well. And then there's a couple of other listed investment companies as well that run by local funds. So for example Fisher Funds Mandergement they run or the other Manderger for three or four listed funds that operate a global sector and Australian investment sector and the New Zealand sector as well. So and those that they can be actively or passively Manderged and if you listeners active is when the fund Manderger is actually doing worked to try to beat the market and passive is where it's just tracking an index in this case the NZ50 or the ASX200 or whatever that index might actually be. So there are those range of options for investors on the NZX as well. Uh but a lot of people would invest directly in those companies also because it's the market you can get your head around as an investor. There's little choice there and there's still some really good quality organization to invest in and if you spend time on that it's actually something that you can get your head around in terms of understanding their fundamental value and understanding why they're attractive as part of a big bigger portfolio.
Phil: It ah really doesn't matter about the size of the market though does it? Because it's all about whether it's a good investment at the end, end of the day isn't it? It's interesting you say that you can, you know like having 2000 stocks on the ASX it's hard to track all of them but one uh, hundred and twenty five is almost a Mandergeable figure.
Oliver Mander: Which it is and look a lot of active investors in New Zealand there is and that has been researched out they will tend to beat the market. That's probably one of the few places in the world where that happens in the long term and that's because it is a small market. You can have conversations with chairs and CEOs boards, they're very accessible. Um and um, you can make your choices as an investor around that. Um, so yeah there probably is a higher incidence of active investors actually beating the long term market index return which is quite unusual for a western developed economy.
Phil: Um what is the long term market.
Oliver Mander: Return in New Zealand? It's probably very, it's probably last time we looked at this was somewhere between the 9 and 10% mark very similar to Australia I think also sitting about 9.6% if I'm right I think New Zealand I've got 9.8% stick here in my head but I haven't done that analysis for a while but that was across the long run return so uh and that holds across sort of 2050 years periods so yeah but very similar to what you'd expect in most major.
Phil: Markets and what sectors are represented on the market?
Oliver Mander: Yeah so like I say there are a few and there's put some clear gaps as well. We certainly don't have the same incidents of mining or banking stocks that you enjoy in Australia.
Phil: It so tech that we're totally reliant.
Oliver Mander: On in Australia so the tech sector is actually fairly well represented there. Some great tech companies they form some attractive options for growth focused investors looking at that sort of long term growth.
Phil: And I mean it's interesting isn't it that how many tech startups there are in Wellington alone in New Zeal.
Oliver Mander: That's right.
Phil: Listed an unlisted company yeah 0 being one of the most so.
Oliver Mander: 0 is one of them that was endedx listed that is now of course listed solely on the ASX but it still maintains its head office in Wellington I suspect's operational bas is probably more in uh Silicon Valley these days but that's a different story but yeah that's an example of of a tech company that grew and yes Wellington it's not just Wellington but certainly you know right now there's other startups or growing businesses that are not listed and I'll siteite Henry as an example of that so that's the next zero that's the uh accountants for sole traders and they're actually accountants and they will work work through providing doing your tax and doing your invoicing and so on as well so it's actually a really interesting business model that they've got and that they're certainly.
Phil: It strong so just tell us a bit more about that what is it Henry is the name of thenry is.
Oliver Mander: It and it's a private uh H N R Y so yep Henry and yeah they'actually not listed yet not listed and the word yet is a really important one One day I'm sure they we'll have that need for capital and we would hope they would look at a public market. But we'll talk about that as well if you like. But yeah, so certainly. But again we seem to have this predilection in New Zealand for doing admin very well. You know we can think of diligent board books which of course was in Christchurch based company, I think it was before they uh, decamped to the us. You have the likes of Zero, the likes of Henry, the likes of FNZ Group who run a lot of the back end behind many of the world's fund Mandergers. Yeah. So we seem to have a predilection in a country of using technology to support admin, which is great.
Phil: Yeah. And it's also unlisted companies like, like Nexa and Share doing portfolio tracking shares
00:10:00
Phil: doing brokerage platform. Yeah, there's plenty like that. It's pretty amazing.
Oliver Mander: There is and there are opportunities and I think as a culture in New Zealand, we're a small country, you know, we have to export what we do and we export capability as well. We have to do that to make our economy work. Uh and I think it's a really interest interesting sort of cultural mechanism to have as you're growing up knowing that you just have this outward looking view of the world straight away. As a child growing up I knew where the rest of the world was in New Zealand's place in it. It's quite a different feeling I think to many people that I've come across uh, over my lifetime who've come from different countries. Are you confused about how to invest? Life Shera can ease the burden of having to decide for yourself. Head to lifeshar do com.au to find out more. Life Sherpa uh, Australia's most affordable online financial advice.
Phil: Let's face it, one of the few non Italian supercars is a New Zealand car, isn't it?
Oliver Mander: Was that uh, the Tuatara? Is that the one?
Phil: No, no, the McLaren.
Oliver Mander: Oh that too. Yes you're right. I uh, know we'll Google Tuataaro in terms of cars. That's another one.
Phil: But yes, okay, another one. Yeah. ###eah, and the world's fastest Indian, world's fast Indian.
Oliver Mander: Ye ye.
Phil: What about agriculture? Does agriculture play much of it? Because you know New Zealand is famed for its clean agricultural products.
Oliver Mander: So sectors on the end of act. That's what we were talking about, wasn't it? So yes, we'll come back to that. So tech sector is very well represented. So it's healthcare through the Likes of Fisher and Pikele. Admittedly that it's a very big beast. Um, and I think it's competing whether a slightly different business model with RESD and Australian based companies. Probably it's one of its main competition. It's probably one of its main competitors. You've got power generation as a sector that's represented in New Zealand. That's probably not represented so well in Australia actually. So but that's that long term utility type return. But actually of course thanks to decarbonization, electricity generation is actually a growth sector at the moment. So there's a huge need for capital in New Zealand and probably in Australia as well for that electricity generation industry. So they need to decarbonize and Manderge that energy transition on the track. Property is a big deal here. On our sectors there'a number of listed property companies, retirement village operators and they're uh, kind of linked to the property sector as well. But of course they have that underlying tailwind of an aging population demographical. Um, so look, there are a number of really interesting sectors you can get exposure to here and some of them probably aren't that readily available in Australia. So in terms of the primary sector, I mean the largest primary sector company in New Zealand is of course Fonterra, which is a cooperative and that's a common model in a lot of those primary sector companies. How they grew up was as a farmer based cooperative or grower based cooperative. And that model is still that's affected how many are actually listed for uh, retail investors or institutional investors on the public exchange. So there's not actually too many listed. You know you have a Sinlay which has had a couple of issues in last year, shall we say the last couple of years. You have a2 Milk and of course that's listed on the ASX also. And that's a very successful marketer of a2 Milk. And there's also agricultural services companies like PGG Rights and who are a Christchurch based agricultural consultancy essentially with a few other bits and pieces as well including a chain of farm um, retail stores. So that's interesting sector to be exposed to in a New Zealand context. And again very long term returns, that's not something you would necessarily trade in and out of as probably a 2mil investors discovered to their peril a few years ago. But also there's a lot of companies that are listed on secondary exchanges. So not the New Zealand stock exchange but something like the unlisted stock exchange and that reflects that cooperative nature of how they grow up. So companies like Zbury or Lic Livestock Improvement Corporation but those are companies where you need to be a grower or a farmer to actually own the shares in that. Silverferrn Farms is another really good example of that and some of those are open to public investors but actually there's a risk in that also because you want to make sure that there's no trade offs between the supplier shareholders and the non supplier shareholders and that can be an element of risk of in investing in those types of companies for that reason I'm not saying that they haven't got the controls around that or the it's a dangerous regulatory regime because it isn't. But that's just something for investors to be aware of when they're going into those types of companies.
Phil: So I believe Ann, New Zealand had some engine issues recently. How has that impacted the operation?
Oliver Mander: Well uh, that's a really interesting question Phil. New Zealand would love more planes right now. They genuinely would. There's actually there was a, they can think the tug operator at Brisbane Airport last week who knocked a plane of theirs out of action by
00:15:00
Oliver Mander: punching a hole in the cockpit fuselage. They've now sorted that. That one's on its way to Singapore now for some heavy based repairs after getting some initial repairs done in Auckland for that particular issue. But yeah look they have like Qantas, they've been impacted by engine issues. They have a replacement cycle going on off those engines that's knocking out it's quite a high proportion of their long haul fleet that's out of action right now and that means they're having to heavily prioritize the brutes they operate. It's not great news for Air New Zealand and I guess the company will be working very hard to ensure that it's long term market share in and out of routes. New Zealand is not compromised by that but certainly it's had an impact on the short term. They're really focusing on their Auckland hub and that's trying to make sure that that's at the expense to some extent of market share in Christchurch, in Wellington in particular, which major Australian gateways and in Christchurch's case also in gateway to Asia. So that is having an impact on New Zealand S sort of long term outcomes. Uh, it's not irreparable. I've got no doubt that once the engine issues are behind them then they will be operating in a relatively stable manner as best they can within the confines of that industry.
Phil: So the funds Mandergement industry, where is it based in New Zealand? Is it both um, Wellington and Auckland or Other places as well.
Oliver Mander: So it's probably. So Auckland is really the main commercial centre. Wellington is very much the main political centre. And what's interesting from a, from a New Zealand Inc perspective from a resilience perspective is that you're seeing now a uh, lot of. So Christchurch is actually the second biggest city but it hasn't really featured on the commercial world to the same extent as say in Aucklander or Wellington. But over the last decade, particularly since the uh, Christ earthquakes that happened in 2011. My gosh, is that the right date? Yeah, I should remember that I wasn't there. I was there not long afterwards. So certainly since then you've seen a real heavy investment in Christchurch, particularly from domestic investors. And what you've seen there, there'a lot of investment banks opening up branch offices down there, some startup investment banks starting in Christchurch. You've seen the law firm, most of the major law firms now have offices there as well. So that's good from a resilience perspective for New Zealand you've now got this sort of balance between Auckland and Christch in a way that really wasn't there before. So that's fast emerging as New Zealand'second commercial centre. So in terms of funds Mandergement we haven't got the same plethora of fund Mandergers that you might have in Australia and that's simply a reflection of our uh, smaller scale. But there are some great options. But a lot of those funds are based on, of the head officers are based in Auckland.
Phil: Just something that just came to mind and I could be wrong about this but are there fewer regulations for companies listing in New Zealand as compared to other countries? Is there a lighter regulatory burden?
Oliver Mander: No, there's definitely not a lighter regulatory. In fact it'sably higher quality. It's probably one of the higher quality regimes and there's aspects, uh, there's two things here. One is the base level of protection offer to investors through the Companies act and the other then is the listing rules which the additional protections that offer to investors purchasing securities on the NZX and the NZX and the ASX have slightly different rules basically they're both fairly high quality regimes. There are some elements where there's greater disclosure required in Australia such as your remuneration reporting and that users very much I would argue a stick approach to get the reporting right. In New Zealand the exchange uses the CART approach to get the reporting right around that and that's had to significant improvement over the last couple of years as they've improved the recommended disclosures around CEO remuneration in particular. But there's other areas where New Zealand is directors are subject to different tests that mean that there's different quality aspects where there's a higher standard in New Zealand than Australia. Certainly both markets are proably relatively they offer relatively good invested protection certainly compared to some like the US or Canada where those regulations simply don't exist to the same extent as they do here.
Phil: I know you're not an economist Oliver, but what's your view of the Kiwi economy?
Oliver Mander: The Kiwi has s had a rough couple of years. Australia is probably tracking about six months behind us. Ever since COVID happened in the post Covid peak and then the trough that followed, Australia has been running a good six months behind New Zealand in terms of both the inflation aspects and the economic growth aspect as well. So that has uh, that the New Zealand economy during 2024 was extremely poor. I mean it was. And that's reflected in the results that we saw from many domestically focused companies like the warehouse group, like in New Zealand, who have a very strong domestic jet business here of course. And there's probably a few others as well that elude uh, my memory right now like Ryme and Healthcare would be an example. So certainly those companies will focus solely on a domestic economy really hurt during 2024. To some extent that's, that's rebounding in 2025. But it's certainly there's no silver bullet to the recovery. It's not a quick bounce back. It
00:20:00
Oliver Mander: certainly was not a soft landing that New Zealand went through. That means that the bounce back is going to take time as well. But ultimately those conditions for success are uh, there. And look the things that we risks to those emerging green shoots if economic recovery will be things like the Trump tariffs in the US and the impact that has on global trade already increased competitiveness within New Zealand as companies look to divert their production into the New Zealand market as well. So I think the watchword for investors this year is very much around watch the volatility of the recovery and the strategic and economic and geopolitical themes that can actually impact that.
Phil: When and how did you start investing? What initially pid your interest?
Oliver Mander: I remember buying my first shares when I was 14, so I was at high school. I don't remember what shares were. I'd be really honest and I sort of kicked myself and because I've shredded everything, I've no idea what they actually were. But I also remember that the brokerage was more than the shares were worth, which I thought was pretty fascinating at the Time. And it was a salient lesson on how I've chosen to invest going forward as well. But I think that reflected a lot about the time as well. You know, broke. For a lot of people investing was the sort of ethereal up in the clouds type thing. They never really felt they could access or see or relate to. And that was the world that I grew up to some extent. My parents didn't come for money. I grew up in r rural Canterbury in South island. And uh, you know, they're from basically a working class type of family arrangement. And I think for a lot of people investing was the sort of other world that they could never relate to and never see. I think we're lucky now and that has clearly changed. I know the same thing has happened in Australia where investing options become much more accessible for a whole wide range of people that could never have done that or contemplated that before. So that's the freeing power of information through the rise of technology and the Internet of course, but also the rise of low cost broking platforms that have actually really helped people just get a little bit of skin in the game and that helps people learn and understand. So I think what got me initially into it in a way was because, yeah I did, like I said, I never had any exposure prior. My parents went into it. I was, I didn't know anything about it. I did go to a school where that was fairly high in school. I was lucky and you saw that exposed me to a different set of demographics, a different set of people and just pickiqued my interest around things.
Phil: Yeah, I've noticed that about Kiwis that you come over to Australia and your education seems to be a lot higher in a lot of cases than here in Australia. And let's like you say you've got this view of the world because I think you seem to be implying that from a young age you've got to be outward looking because there mightn't be opportunities locally have after me.
Oliver Mander: And that's a blessing and a curse. Of course, Phil, we see right now we're suffering, uh, thanks to the economic recession in 2024. Has an immediate impact on young Kiwis emigrating from New Zealand to Australia. Of course. And there's quite a lot of Kiwis living in the likes of Sydney or the Gold coast or Perth. So our diaspora is actually quite large, uh, outside of nz. Many come back and that's great for us because they bring all that knowledge with them. They've learned and developed their capability further overseas. I'm probably an example of that but many don't and that's to say it lost for our country long term. So we do have to get that balance right at time and make sure that the opportunities are here for our uh, young people and where they can grow and develop and thrive.
Phil: So you personally, do you invest mainly locally or internationally or a combination?
Oliver Mander: I run a fairly, it's almost a mechanistic approach but I think in terms of my own approach I've for got a very clear investment strategy so I know what my long term goals are.
Phil: Or um. I can't wait to hear this.
Oliver Mander: Uh, no, it's reallyt simple. It's not rocket science so I don't think it is. So look investment strategy very much long term and that's just a simple set of objectives that reflects what we want to do long term as me and my wife. So and there's I guess I am probably a fairly long term investors. I'm very much focused on growth so quite an aggressively geared portfolio towards equity and I'm prepared to uh, be very patient in terms of the capital that I will supply. I mostly invest in public markets've got a few investments and listed investments as well and a few in funds but it's mostly in public equity markets because I do think that that trade off for risk versus the investor protection you get from the transparency associated with the public company. I do think that makes a difference. So I'm not just chasing return. I try to have a set level of risk and then I maximize the returns away from that set level of risk. Ye maximize my returns given that set level of risk and that's part of the investment objectives that we have. The way I'WORK uh, that is so I'm essentially running my own little statement of investment in you investment objectives. So that sets out each of the investments and justify each the investments against that. We have a clearly defined
00:25:00
Oliver Mander: portfolio allocation which is allocated to both how much we invest actively, how much we invest passively and that could be either direct investments or ETFs but also then how much we target towards different geographies and whether that's also then direct investment or through funds or ETFs. So it sounds complicated. It's not, it's just. Yeah, just go into it.
Phil: Go into it. Yeah, go into it a little bit more. If you've got a little checklist you sort of said that's a kind of. Yeah, tell us about that.
Oliver Mander: I have an algorithm and a spreadsheet. So basically I track how my portfolio is doing against different benchmarks that we set or different allocation models that we set in terms of geography, sector, uh, and the style of investment, whether that's direct or indirect. And I'm looking to optimize across that against defined level of risk and trying to maximize my returns away from that. Diversification, to me is really important. Uh, we probably. And I'll make the way we set those allocations is really through looking at what are the key economic or economic themes or geopolitical themes. So the thematic type approach in saying where don't we want to be? So does, for example, the introduction of tariffs into the US does that increase vulnerability or increased risk of. Of good investor returns from the US Market? We would argue it does. Sorry, when I say we, I mean me and my wife. We do talk about this. So I will then look to diversify or reduce the portfolio allocation that we're allocating to the U.S. i don't just look at where the stocks are listed to get that allocation. We'd look through the stocks to say all the ETFs to say what's the underlying exposure. So if you're looking at a particular etf, it might be listed in Australia or it might be listed in the US but that doesn't mean it's all US Exposure. So we look quite carefully at what those sector balances are and the country balances are. Yeah. And there's some y. So he use portfolio Mandergement tools like Share Site, but also have my own spreadsheets to augment that in terms of, um, understanding some of those aspects.
Phil: Yeah, I've heard Share Site'main m competitor is the spreadsheet.
Oliver Mander: It is.
Phil: And I mean, are you one of those spreadsheet tragics?
Oliver Mander: Look, I have to admit, I love a good spreadsheet. My wife always hassles me about that, so. Yep. No, uh, we have fascinating conversations and she tends to GR and walk away when I start talking about spreadsheets.
Phil: But, uh, please feel free to nerd out here on spreadsheets. What is it that you're setting up that you is helping you investing?
Oliver Mander: Yeah, so I do track daily prices of stocks and there's some great functionality in Excel that lets you do that these days. That'll give me. I can calculate then a beta or how much the stock varies compared to an index over time. So I'm looking at things like that. I'm just looking at, uh. And then I tend to use share site or more for actually understanding that wider portfolio allocation. Sorry, the wider portfolio return, uh, over time. I Do the allocation model and an algorithm that's driven through, through Excel as well. And that's just telling me I'm my overweight or underweight and I do tend to use or create. If I'm looking at a direct investment I will look to understand as I said the first thing for me is the thematic so those economic, those external impacts that can hurt a company or.
Phil: They call that top down investing, don't they?
Oliver Mander: Top down investing. Then I start looking at a company strategy and trying to pick the look at what I think is the best company. But that's an active choice. So yes, it s essentially a form of stock picking and then I'm valuing that company from a financial perspective and I'll do that through having an effective discounter cash flow model. I'll be comparing the assumptions in that cash flow model to what occurs down the track as well. So you're using a variety of sources to inform that some of its conversation with the company even before ended to say I was never shy about ringing a company and asking them what's going on.
Phil: Uh, I think that's important for investors to know that you actually can call a company and ask them the questions. Yeah. Anywhere in the world.
Oliver Mander: Yep. And you? I do it as part of my role at nzsa we're very keen that companies do engage with investors and I think we've when companies have their results and they have their analyst briefings uh afterwards and many companies in New Zealand now they will make that available for all retail investors to attempt as well. I think that is important using corporate sources. Attending shareholder meeting is actually important because you get stuff coming from the questions uh, you see, you get more insight from the questions that are asked and that helps you form an opinion as well. That's why NZSay and ASA perform such an important role because we are reporting on those meetings, on the questions that were asked, on the themes that were raised. So yeah look I think there's a variety of both commentary media, analyst reports, your own questioning, uh, of the company and company material itself. You know, looking at their presentations and looking at the annual reports and from that you can make some assumptions around okay, what happens and then yeah, so I'll model that out and see what it looks like and
00:30:00
Oliver Mander: then I'll track that model over time to see how wrong I was but obviously amended it and that's a constant interplay of how's the company performing against that particular set of assumptions that I've made. But uh, some constantly testing and retesting.
Phil: Assumptions track Your Investments, like a Pro share site, is Investopedia's number one portfolio tracker for DIY investors. Simplifying your finances. Get four months free on an annual premium plan at sharesite.com sharesforbeginners. You sound pretty passionate about this and you spend a lot of time and you love it, don't you?
Oliver Mander: I think. Well, yes, because I think.
Phil: Sorry, I just wanted to say I think this is a lesson for people listening is that if you want to invest in the share market directly and look at your investments, it's a lot. First of all, it's complex, it's long term. You've got to be passionate about. It's not something that you just sort of sit there and do for a week and then forget about it. Do you? There's ETFs for that if you wanted to do. But anyway, that's right and I think.
Oliver Mander: I would absolutely agree with that. So it comes down to sort of this beautiful intersection of your own constructive energy and your own capability around that. And it's not easy. You know, the whole thing of, you know, going onto shares and buying shares just because everyone else is doing it. Well, that's not me. If anything, I'll look at that and say that's interesting. And then I'll look for. Is there a contrarian position around that? But yeah, so I don't tend to follow the herd in that respect. It's looking at objective data, uh, independent analysis and actually trying to work out, okay, what's appropriate here as a decision I can make. And I tend to keep that fairly close because obviously I'm not an advisor. So I don't say too much about what the analysis is showingus. It's just particularly in someone in my role that's not right to do that.
Phil: No, no, of course not. Of course not.
Oliver Mander: But the other thing I do look at is I do look at how a company is governed. So you're looking at the quality of its governance and you're looking probably at its track record as well and how that has fed into investor sentiment. Now, I know that track record is no guarantee of future, but it does tell you something about capability both of the board and of those senior Mandergers. So that is important for me and that helps with making decisions. And one of the things that I really believe in from a New Zealand perspective is we're, we're a small market. Yep. Unlike any market. Like most Western markets right now, we need capital. Right. But because we're small, actually we can have a quite high quality set of Governance practices and rules and conduct in place and still attract enough capital for us to on a global scale to satisfy what most New Zealand companies or our economy is looking for in terms of capital investment. So I'd rather have a really high quality market that inspires confidence for investment and that very much translates to how I look at things as well when I personally choose to invest.
Phil: Tell us about some time when you were wrong and I mean when you're looking at companies and you've got a thesis and you've decided to invest and you've put some capital into a particular company or sector, what is it that identifies um, you being incorrect?
Oliver Mander: I think the key thing that strings to mind here is timerame because sometimes I might be wrong and uh, any active investor will know this, you know, long term in all the research says you can't beat a passive market. So the things that I don't know, I'm really happy to invest in a passive etf, right? So I don't invest directly in the US market I know most people do and people are probably listening to this going, what is he not doing that for?
Phil: But I Apple load up on Apple.
Oliver Mander: I simply cannot get my head around the sheer number of companies that list in the US investment options there. I'd rather have a professional do the job for me. So at that point, you know, I choose not to invest in the US but I do invest in Germany directly for example because I worked there. I understand that market a little I feel like can get my head around what happens and some sectors uh, of that listed market.
Phil: What is it about Germany that makes you feel comfortable?
Oliver Mander: So right now given the uh, geopolitics aspect, I have, you know, made some allocation decisions around Europe versus US and so that means I'm sort of shifting capital to go and fulfill that. And you know I probably started that relatively early which was worked out rather well for me right now. And some of that's through ETF type structures but a lot of it is through direct investment and certain companies or sectors that I think and uh, frankly will offer future value that isn't reflected right now. But ultimately you're taking an assessment. So whether I'm right or not, that's the conversation we're having. And some of it sometimes is simply down to timing or time frame. So if you're making an investment decision, I mean I don't believe necessarily in fully timing the market because I don't think you can, you can't consistently get it right every single time. So I'll always Look the long term and I'll look for companies that I think
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Oliver Mander: offer fundamental value that is not yet reflected in the market value of the share price. Sometimes that market value may take a longer time frame to realize than I have initially thought. So the strategies I look at personally to go and cope with that, it's pretty rare that it'll sell out completely. But what I might do is buy more some dollar cost averaging and that can be a fraught strategy of course because you're still having a fundamental belief that uh, you still believe in what this company is doing. What this with company strategy is. I've got one investment at the moment that I bought at completely the wrong time. I still think it has value but uh, I'm well underwater on it, but I'm hanging ono it and I have averaged down to some extent on that. But I'm not willing to skew my portfolio in such a way to fully reflect what I need to the money I need to put in. So I'm still running within certain guardrails within my portfolio in terms of how I look at individual investments. I do want to maintain that. So and that's a protection mechanism so you don't get overexposed to one particular bad investment. At the end of the day if it fails completely, then I still have enough returns from elsewhere to offset that and it's not going to hurt the wider portfolio. On the other hand, if that timef frame to recover is longer and it does recover, then things looking pretty good. But yeah. So mechanisms like dollar cost averaging are helpful to me ret testing and testing those assumptions that I've made and m am I wrong? And I'm not afraid to sell out at loss if I've got it wrong and I'll try to do.
Phil: Yeah, that's really important isn't it? Investing just realing when you're wrong.
Oliver Mander: I think a lot of people, a lot of people are great buyers but they're bad sellers. And it's something that we've talked about to say as well from an visa psychology perspective. So I'm not particular if I've got it wrong. I'm not shy about saying hey, I've got it and just recognizising that and taking the haircut because inevitably I can reinvest that money and I'll get it right next time.
Phil: Y I saw on your bio the Scout Youth foundation investment committee. What is it and what's your role?
Oliver Mander: So Scouts New Zealand and of course the Scouting Australia as well. So that's uh, A global movement. So Scouts NZ as an endowment fund that was set up by a coalition of the willing a few years ago on the investment committee for that. What we look to do is generate a return to put back into Scouting for disadvantaged families or for specific projects where the money might otherwise not be available. It's only small but it's growing rapidly and yeah, it certainly made a difference to many people who wouldn't otherwise have been able to do to participate in Scouts and Scouts New Zealand activities. Yeah and look, I do believe that Scouting does make a difference to people's lives. It instills a certain, it works and focus on certain leadership qualities. It focuses on giving people experiences they wouldn't otherwise be able to achieve. So I do believe in that as a core premise and its value in the.
Phil: Yeah, and getting kids off their devices.
Oliver Mander: Yep, that too.
Phil: Why did you join the New Zealand Shareholders Association? What is it of? I think you're just the personality type that likes that. Especially with your interest in governance.
Oliver Mander: Well, I think so, but interestingly so I, I joined as CEO as you said in your intro back in October 2020. It feels like quite a while ago now and uh, for me really it was in intersection of a couple of things, you know one, yes, played to my sort of underlying interest if you will but also as a bit of an inflection point in my own career, in my previous career where I'FELT I've been typecast since returning to New Zealand. It's a very common problem for returning expats and I wanted to use that/rt of full range of skills that I grew up with. You know, that holistic set of active skills that I have rather than be pigeonoled into one particular area. So I think NZs say that's why it attracted me. Uh, it meant that I could actually make an impact in a way that helps New Zealand investors and helps international investors have confidence in New Zealand's market. And I do think that matters. We have a very high quality regulatory regime here. We investors can have confidence in New Zealand's market. Part of my role is to look at that and make sure that we understand the quality of the companies that investors are investing in. So for me that mattered. Might sound a bit pointy headed but actually it really does matter to me and because I have a relatively broad background actually I've got, I can talk at many different levels and I can understand many different facets of an organization, how it operates, how it works and how the governance might relate to that organization. So I think that was what attracted me into that role. And certainly I think it's been a relative. I think N EA has been very good for me, but also I think I've been good for NIDE essay and I hope to continue that for some time yet. In terms of as an investor though, interestingly, I'd never heard of ENZ essay before I saw the advertisement for its CEO. So that's quite telling for me, you know, if I'm someone who's into this. And yes, admittedly I hadn't been back in New Zealand that long and I'd been overseas
00:40:00
Oliver Mander: for a lot of the period when NZSA was formed and founded and growing up. But it still was interesting to me that there was this organization here that was catering to my needs as an individual investor, but wasn't an advocating on my behalf. But I'd never heard of it. So I think for me that's a real opportunity and we haven't cracked that yet. And it NSZ essay I would like to see our organization move to be a significant voice for all individual investors, no matter the age, stage, demographic experience. And we have a lot more work to do to achieve that.
Phil: Well, we've got quite a few New Zealand listeners to this podcast. So uh, pitch to them now, tell.
Oliver Mander: Them about it, them now how much.
Phil: It cost and what are the benefits and everything.
Oliver Mander: Yeah, so NZSA as an individual member costs 5$145 a year. And of course if you have an investment portfolio that's uh, likely to be tax deductible, please consult your tax advisor for that. Really what we aimd to be is that we protect, we empower and we enable and we reward you your investment and we are that voice for retail investors in New Zealand and we'll advocate on your behalf. That means that things are happening in the background. We have the credibility and the influence to have the right conversations with people to inflect change for the benefit of individual investors where that change is required. So really we're kind of a force for good in capital markets in New Zealand and I think most of the industry stakeholders here that they respect NZSA's position in the market and its voice in support of individual investors. So that's what we're here for. Sometimeimes you might get a direct benefit. A lot of the times the benefit is behind the scenes, uh, but we are active in those conversations in terms of how corporate boards and how shaped and the skills they need to have and how they interact with investors as well.
Phil: And is there a website that listeners.
Oliver Mander: Can go to wwwub.nz shareholders co nz and you'll see a big join us button there. Just hit that and join us.
Phil: Oliv Amanda, thanks very much for joining me today. It's been great to hear about what goes on in the land of the long white cloud. And do you have to do a harkr when you list on the nzx?
Oliver Mander: No there is an opening bell just like there is in the ASX and.
Phil: So I think that should be instituted. I think you should be lobbying for it as part of the end do.
Oliver Mander: Ring that bell and I'm sure our local exchange would like to see a lot more companies ringing that billl for the near future. So y thank you very muchk you Phil. Been great to talk to you today and any time. Thanks for listening to Stocks for Beginners. You can find more at chesforbeginners.com. if you enjoy listening, please take a moment to rate or review in your podcast player or tell a friend who might want to learn more about investing for their future.
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